In chapter 20, we see that Holden gets drunk after Luce leaves the bar. While in the bar, Holden tries to make a date with the singer, named Valencia. In seminar today, someone mentioned that since teenagers feel they are so close to freedom, they sometimes start doing things adults do, such as drinking and smoking. This was, and still is, very common. It is just a universal condition: teenagers are trying to get to full freedom, but they are not quite there yet. However, due to what we have learned about Holden, it seems like he does not want to grow up and become "unpure" Do you think that Holden is being somewhat contradictory? How does this side of Holden change your views of Holden? Is it possible that Holden does actually wants to grow up?
In this chapter, even though Holden gets drunk, he still acts like a child. What are some of the examples in this chapter where Holden still acts like a child?Do you find Holden's feelings in this chapter relatable? Why or why not?
Also, while Holden was at the duckpond in
Central Park nearing the end of this chapter, he decided to go home. Do you think Holden has fully thought this through? How do you feel his decision reflects his maturity? Do you think this shows any change in maturity since the beginning of the book?
Holden acts like a child in many ways in chapter 20. First of all getting drunk after Luce left was a bad decision. While Luce was there he kept asking immature questions about his girlfriend just to irritate Luce. He thinks Luce is becoming phony but actually i think Holden wouldn't want to admit that Luce is just more mature than he is. He also tries to send someone to get the singer at the hotel for him, which doesn't happen and was not a well thought out plan on Holden's part. He goes walking around New York in the cold late at night which is also immature. He then decides to go home, because he misses Phoebe and wants to see her. He doesn't think this plan through very well either but it seems to work out for him when the elevator man doesn't question him and his parents are out. Holden i think is still just as lost and immature as before. I hope something soon will help him mature and learn to let his emotions out.
ReplyDeleteHolden still acts like a child by trying to drown his problems in alcohol. Also asking about other peoples sex life after they ask to sot pis kind of immature. To add on the that it is also a little immature to pursue a conversation topic that someone has asked you to stop talking about multiple. I do think that the feelings in general are common. He wants to obtain knowledge on something that he really doesn't know about. He's curious, and he is not mentally stable/ mature enough to control himself. I think the last part is particular to Holden. I think that Holden has fully thought though his decision to return home. I think that he is at the state of mind when he doesn't really care about the consequences that he might face. He also really needs someone to talk to since all of his previous attempts have failed and he knows that phoebe will listen and provide him with an intelligent response. I think that this shows a little bit of improved maturity since the book started because even though he isn't saying it right out to us in the text, I think we are able to infer that he has decided that he needs to talk to someone about his situation.
ReplyDeleteI believe his actions do contradict what he has been emphasizing the entire book: the "phoniness" of the adult world. Things such as smoking and drinking alcohol and sex, which all appear in chapter 22, do not lead to the conclusion that Holden wants to remain pure and untainted, and never grow up. However, it is still obvious that he has certain qualities that reflect immaturity and childish tendencies, such as the fact that he didn't want to be alone when Luce was leaving; it was almost as if he was a child who wanted to keep playing on the playground after the other children had already left. However, when he asked, he wanted to have another drink, which is definitely something that a kid would not do. Another way he was childish was when he kept being told to "go home and go to bed". He was told this by multiple people, including Sally when he (almost childishly) called to ask if he could come over and help her trim the tree. This remark reminds me of adults telling a child that it is past their bed time, and that they shouldn't be walking around at this time. His feelings are relatable; sometimes people just want to act like a child just to forget about their other obligations. Holden does this by acting foolishly, drinking and smoking instead of facing the problems he is having. It is like he is running away, just as children often do when they are faced with a problem they cannot solve. As a final case of his immaturity, his decision to go home is very child-like, although this is not a bad thing in this situation. He would have eventually had to go home, however, so this decision to finally go home could also be viewed as an act of maturity in his realization that he had to face his family eventually, so why not now? So, in a way, I believe it reflects a change in his maturity; a change toward his family, and to eventually attempt to talk about his problems with Phoebe, whether he gets through to them or not.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that he gets drunk without thinking at all of what will come or what the consequences will be show his still immature way of thought. He seems to like doing things on whim, another quality sometimes attributed to children. However, I do feel that Holden is somewhat contradicting himself in this chapter, as alcohol can usually be thought as being unfit for children, yet he drinks and smokes as if like an adult. If Holden really wanted loved the time of childhood so much he would not be as eager to experience the adult world like he is doing now. I feel that Holden is getting worse as the story draws on, and he is approaching the point where he cannot hold back his true feelings anymore. The decision of intentionally seeking a person, Phoebe in this case, surprised me a great deal, especially after he dropped the record he bought for her as a present. The fact that Holden is consciously making an effort to see and talk the person whom he feels the happiest about may be one of the final attempts of him to talk with someone about his problems. Thus, Holden feels at the edge of the cliff and tries to reach out to someone close to him, but that is a result of his immaturity.
ReplyDeleteI think Holden is being contradictory, but isn't that what Holden does best. He doesn't want to grow up yet he tries to drink all the time and pass himself off as twenty-one. I don't think Holden necessarily wants to stay a child, but he is scared of falling across the threshold into adulthood. Holden acts like a child when the pianist asks him his age and he replies, "eighty-six". His drinking has obviously not made him more mature or grown up. He acts more like a child now than ever. I do find Holden's feelings in this chapter relatable. He is trying seemingly grown-up things, but he just looks more ridiculous. This is Holden's dilemma. When he tries to mature people can't even take him seriously. I think Holden simply finds it easier to continue doing what he knows instead of taking a risk. I do not think Holden has thoroughly thought through his idea to go home. He decides upon it suddenly and with hardly any thought. I think this makes Holden less mature, because he makes such an irrational decision. He thinks he can sneak into his own house, talk to his sister, and get out before his parents knew he was there. I think Holden is showing a change in maturity, not significantly but slow and steady. He has tried to open up to a lot of people and explain to them his problem and what is stressing him, but everyone lets him down. I think it takes a certain level of maturity to continue reaching out even when you keep falling short. I believe this makes Holden more mature.
ReplyDeleteI do think that Holden is being contradictory because his is wanting to be an adult in the aspect of being able to drink. The way you pointed this out does somewhat change my view on Holden, because I always thought that he made dumb decisions, but I never thought of them as though they were about growing up. I do think it is possible that he does want to grow up because he wants to drink. I think that he knows that he kind of wants to, in a way, grow up, because he mentions that waiters at restaurants ask him for an ID or how old him. If I were him and in that situation, I would want to tbe a grown up so that I could be able to my drinks without being ask how old I was.
ReplyDeleteAn example of Holden acting like a kid is being drunk under age. Now and days a huge amount of people under the age, drink at parties and get drunk with their friends because they think it is either fun or cool. And most of this chapter is about him being drunk so I can not relate to any of this feelings.
When he is at the duckpond in Central Park, I do not think that he fully thought through the idea of going home, because if he wasn't drunk, he would have know that it could have been a huge risk because he could have gotten caught and his parents would have been so mad! And this decision reflects badly of his maturity because first of all, if he was mature, he would have not drinken under the age and gotten drunk. And secondly, he was putting himself in danger. No, I do not think it has shown any change since the beginning of the book.