Answer each of the following questions in a comment:
1. In book 16, Odysseus reveals his identity to Telemachus. What does the reaction of the two characters tell us about the Greeks' attitude towards the expression of emotion? How does their attitude differ from ours? (Think of American film heroes like John Wayne or Clint Eastwood.)
2. In what ways does Telemachus show in this book that he has matured?
(Ummm.... Who are John Wayne and Clint Eastwood?)
ReplyDeleteFrom the character's reaction one can assume that the Greek's viewed emotion as something that should be expressed under the right conditions. Odysseus cried and "kissed his son" even though normally he would "rein emotions back" (15.225) So we can guess that the Greek's were in touch with their feelings but did not sob hysterically all that much. Male American film stars tend to be quick to throw a few punches, but usually very tough and never show any emotion but anger or rage. Usually the only time we see sadness, humility, or grief is when a close friend, family member, or love interest is in danger. I would say that American's believe in the stoic refusal to show weakness in the form of emotion. (Though it's not weakness at all in actuality.) Telemachus shows that he has matured by quickly accepting his father's return (after the initial shock) and not showing any anger about being fatherless for his whole life, but simply happy that Odysseus is back, and a willingness to kill the suitors. He is very clever, and asks Eumaeus to tell his mother he has returned in a way that will not alert his return to everybody or cause his mother a great shock. An immature child could not cope with any of these problems.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that the reaction of Odysseus and Telemachus tells us that in the greek culture it was okay to express ones emotions. In book 16 it tells us that Odysseus weeps and so does Telemachus. I don't think that you had to be very secretive about sad emotions. It was okay to express them freely. This is not the first time that Odysseus has wept. Another time was when he wept in Phaeacia. He broke down into tears multiple times in one day. I think that the greeks attitude towards men showing emotions is more nonchalant than the Americans attitude towards it. In American culture a man is supposed to be tough, strong, and keep his emotions hidden. It is often said in America that the manliest man has never cried. With film heroes it goes even farther. There is no chance in the world that a tough leader would break down crying in a movie. In this chapter it shows that Telemachus has matured because he is finally ready to take on the suitors. No longer will he take their abuse. With his fathers help he plans to slay them all.
ReplyDeleteIn this book, when Odysseus tells Telemachus who he really is, they both start wailing and crying. This shows that Greeks don't hold back when they are filled with overwhelming emotion. They don't think crying is a sign of having too much weakness. Their attitudes differ from ours, because they don't think that crying men are too sensitive. They just openly express themselves. One way Telemachus matures, is when he refuses to take in the "stranger", because he is afraid of what the suitors might do. This shows how much he actually cares about the "stranger" and how he doesn't want to see him get hurt. Another example of his maturity, is when he doesn't let the "stranger" give up his seat for him. Instead he finds a seat for himself. This shows that he actually uses effort not to disturb the man even though he is royalty. He doesn't always accept the "royal treatment". (My comment used to be much longer but when I tried to post it, it didn't work and the whole thing was deleted and I had to do it again for memory, so it might not be as good as it used to be)
ReplyDeleteIn book 16, when Odysseus revealed his identity, he begins to cry, which is not typical of a hero, or at least that is what has come to be believed. Similarly, Telemachus, after getting over his initial denial of the truth, also begins to cry. This shows the reader that back then it was alright to show emotion, and even express it in the form of tears, which has come to be believed is wimpy, and shows weakness. In the books and movies today, you are shocked when a main character even shows a crack in the usual stoic manner that is commonly portrayed in action stories similar to the Odyssey. I think it is nice knowing that there was a time when crying was seen not as a shameful act, but more as a act of happiness, along with also showing sadness and misery. In this book, I believe that the reader has seen Telemachus grow up through his greeting of Odysseus in disguise, and how he takes charge and is kind to the "beggar", and shows him respect and hospitality. It is clear the Eumaeus praises him highly for his kindness and respect, so the reader can assume that Telemachus has started to become a more mature and respectable adult, rather than a weak and frightened child. Even though he cries, I believe that he was not showing weakness, but just expressing his joy through tears.
ReplyDeleteWhen Odysseus and Telemachus are reunited they both begin to cry "sharper than birds of prey." We have seen Odysseus in tears before in Phaecia, when stories of the Troy are told, however this time someone else is sobbing with him, and it is for a much more personal reason. Though it says that Odysseus typically "reined his emotions back," it appears as though the Greeks have no problem with freely expressing emotion in appropriate situations. Our attitude toward expressing emotion is much different from that of ancient Greece. Today male heroes are portrayed as stoic and unflappable, any show of emotion, particularly tears, is seen as a weakness. Once he has gotten over the initial shock of seeing his father, Telemachus shows his newfound maturity in this scene. He quickly agrees to help his father take revenge on the suitors, and strategizes with Odysseus rather than simply following his lead. The assembly Telemachus calls in book 2 ended with him running away in tears, here he is described as "full of poise."
ReplyDelete1) Odysseus and Telemachus' reactions showed how Greeks did not usually show emotion. This is shown when Odysseus first reveals his identity to Telemachus and it says, "tears streamed down his cheeks and wet the ground though before he'd always reined his emotions back." In our modern world emotion is a way of showing importance. When you lose something/someone very important to you, like a family member, others can see the importance of this person through your emotions. There is also much more display of emotion now than there used to be, because back in ancient Greece being a strong, non-feeling man was what was expected of men. Now, no one thinks less of you if you cry every once in a while.
ReplyDelete2) Telemachus has matured a lot throughout the book. At the beginning of the book, Telemachus had to be encouraged by Athena to set sail for news of Odysseus, but by Book 16 Telemachus is nearly at the level of his father when it comes to planning/scheming. Telemachus and Odysseus have already begun to devise a plan to exact revenge upon the suitors before the book is even over. The fact that Telemachus is bravely ready to step into the unknown shows just how much he has matured on his on journey.
One could say that Greeks normally are supposed to mas their emotions from when Odysseus says, “though before he’d always reined his emotions back.” (p 344 lines 217) Though in this case both Odysseus, and Telemachus express intense emptions of happiness in the form of crying, and embracing each other. We could infer from these observations that Greeks perceived it appropriate to display extreme forms of emotions in certain situations. Odysseus also was crying when the bard at King Alcinous’ palace was telling his tale about the exploits at Troy which shows that Odysseus has no qualms against displaying intense emotion in times of great stress, and/or happiness. In modern day movies, the character in a movie that an actor plays is expected to practically always be critical, and their emotions are often exaggerated past beyond reality. For example, If the same situation of a father coming home after many years and reveals himself to his son, the actors are expected to not cry, but hide their emotions under a mask as is what is expected from two men. It is not as accepted for them to show great emotion in this type of situation as it was in Greece. Also, while Telemachus accepts Odysseus without any repressed anger, the actor who would be in Telemachus’ role would be expected to have some anger at his father for leaving him like that. Actors are only expected to have great emotions when they are either cheated on, or have a precious one die. Telemachus shows that he has matured when he “answered shrewdly, full of poise.” (p 346 line 294) This shows that Telemachus has learned to control his emotions, and act calmly in a dangerous situation unlike when he started crying before he left out to the sea to hunt for information about Odysseus. In this case the dangerous situation is how he and Odysseus are going to be greatly outnumbered when fighting the suitors.
ReplyDelete1) When Odysseus reveals himself to Telemachus at first Telemachus is in denial. He does not believe that Odysseus could be human after changing from an old man in rags, to a strong, tall man. Telemachus says in the Odyssey "impossible for a mortal to work such marvels, not with his own devices, not unless some god comes down in person, eager to make that mortal young or old-like that! Why, just now you were old, and wrapped in rags, but now, look, you seem like a god who rules the skies up there!" After Odysseus and Telemachus reunite as father and son they hug and kiss each other on the cheek and face. Showing their love for each other openly. In American films, it is very rare to see any man show emotion towards one and other.
ReplyDelete2) Telemachus shows maturity but not wanting to make a big deal with his return. Also, but not being afraid of the plan to kill the suitors. Telemachus deals with these problems as an adult not a child. A child would not know the course of action in this situation or he would be to afraid to participate in it.
It seems to me as if the Greeks have no idea of the modern culture of men having to conceal their feelings, and that they should never show signs of weakness because they are men. In the Odyssey, Odysseus and his sons weep freely, something that men in our culture today would not readily do. This may have to do with the Greek idea of catharsis, and it was believed that feeling great sadness was a cleansing emotion. We've seen Odysseus cry before, in Phaeciae, and it really seems that crying is common in Greek drama. If you look in the American theater, you won't see many men crying. We seem to like "tough guys" more, who do all the heroic stuff and show no signs of weakness while in the process. I think the greatest sign that Telemachus has emerged is how he treated his own father, who was disguised. He welcomed the stranger without showing signs of malcontent or personal hubris, showing that Telemachus has somewhat mastered the Greek xenia. of course, it is also an interest to note the change in personal demeanor, "shrewdly, full of poise"(p.346), compared to the somewhat embarrassing event of him breaking into tears when he finished ranting in the second book.
ReplyDeleteWhen Telemachus finds out that Odysseus is back and standing right in front of him, he bursts into tears. His 'shrilling cries, pulsing sharper than birds of prey when farmers plunder their nest of young too young to fly' show us that unlike our modern society, the Greeks were not afraid to embrace their feelings, and openly expressed them. In our society, if a twenty year old male burst into tears, he would most likely be labeled 'wimpy' or 'weak' or something else along those lines because in our culture and society, expressing our feelings is a sign of weakness. In the Odyssey, on the other hand, Telemachus, who must be at least 20 by now, bursts into tears and it is perfectly acceptable. Telemachus shows his growth and maturity from the beginning of the book in this chapter by taking charge of the old beggar as a responsible adult of the time would have behaved; giving him food and shelter and treating him with kindness. He also begins plotting the suitors' downfall with his father just as a man in the military might do. This shows a great change in maturity from book 1, where he appeared to be shy and feeble before being approached by Athena.
ReplyDelete1. When Odysseus tells Telemachus of his true identity, at first Telemachus does not believe the man, but after some convincing he breaks down and bursts into tears of joy from finally meeting up with his father once again. This is peculiar because in "The Odyssey," Telemachus is seen as a hero, and in many modern adventure stories, the hero never cries. In stories nowadays, if the hero (or any other seemingly strong character in the book) cries, then that character is labeled as a weak or soft person. Our modern day society has, for some reason, decided that showing emotions is no longer a heroic thing to do. This makes modern day views on this subject different then those of the Ancient Greeks because the Ancient Greeks, from the myths I have read so far, have the hero cry in almost every one of their stories because they did not think that showing emotions would make the hero any less heroic. As an example, comparing Odysseus to Clint Eastwood, Odysseus cries a lot. He cries almost everyday when he is on Calypso's island, and he cries when he meets back up with his son. Clint Eastwood, who is considered an American hero, played character's who hardly ever showed any emotion at all.
ReplyDelete2. In the last couple of books that we have read, Telemachus has shown much more maturity then he did at the beginning of "The Odyssey." At the beginning, Telemachus was slightly bashful, and it seemed almost as if he did not really want or know how to stand up for himself. However, in recent books, Telemachus has shown an outstanding level of maturity. He now seems more sure of himself, and more aware of how important his role is in maintaining his family's name and reputation. Another way that Telemachus shows his maturity is that now that his father has returned home, Telemachus has a lot more responsibilities, such as planning an ambush on the suitors, that his father trusts him with. I think that by book 16, Telemachus realizes how important it is that he acts responsible like an adult so that he can be as helpful as possible in Odysseus' plans to take back Ithaca from the suitors.
On page 344, the moment when Odysseus reveals his identity to Telemachus, the scene is described as "Odysseus kissed his son and the tears streamed down his cheeks and wet the ground, though before he'd allays reined his emotions back" and again on page 345 as "Odysseus sat down again, and Telemachus threw his arms around his great father, sobbing uncontrollably as the deep desire for tears welled up in both. They cried out, shrilling cries, pulsing sharper than birds of prey". These passages indicate the very emotional moment of reuniting of father and son. This tells us that how Greeks express their emotion towards each other is very different than what is "normal" in our country and culture.They weep and cry whenever something devastating has happened where as we sometimes must suppress our emotions. It is also different because they spend many hours reminiscing over the news of something and showing complete emotion and not holding anything back. The Greeks are also very upfront and confrontational about what they have on their mind. In book 16, you can tell that Telemachus has matured because on page 344, Telemachus says "'No, you're not Odysseus! Not my father! Just some spirit spellbinding me now- to make me ache with sorrow all the more". This demonstrates how he has grown up because he is not as naïve as he used to be when it came to trusting people and now he has put up barriers in his trust that are very hard to be crossed.
ReplyDeleteIn book 16 the father son reuniting moment, or in this case meeting for the first time between Odysseus and Telemachus is an emotional one. Odysseus kisses Telemachus and they both start to cry. Not a few tears but they let out weeping for all the heartache they have suffered and the years of being separated.This was common in Greek culture they did not have a problem with tough warriors like Odysseus letting out their emotions and crying like a woman who has lost her husband,which was an epic simile in the Odyssey. This is not the case in American culture. People like Clint Eastwood play the tough guy act to keep a tough guy image. They seem to be ashamed of letting their emotions out and would be labeled as a wimp or a softie if they do. But in the Greek culture it was encouraged to express your emotions in any way. Odysseus and Clint Eastwood are both tough men physically but on the inside Odysseus has emotions which he expresses while Clint Eastwood would never do.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus does mature in this book. He has gone on a journey at sea and he has taken charge at home. We also see that when Telemachus hears the truth from Odysseus he takes a little convincing which means he is becoming less able to be taken advantage of. He also does not go run and tell his mother that he or Odysseus is home because he knows he should not for their scheme to work.
1. In this book, after Odysseus reveals who he really his, he begins to cry. Telemachus also begins to cry. This shows that in the time when the myth was made and told, people were very passionate. Probably more than people today. The Greeks were not afraid to express what they were feeling. Even Telemachus, who would now be considered a teenager, burst in shrieking tears at the sight of his long-lost father.
ReplyDelete2. Telemachus, who is only a teenager, has matured so much over the twenty years that his father has been away from home. He has even matured over the course of last few books. When Telemachus sees Odysseus, he doesn't believe that he is his real father. He is smart enough and mature enough to know that the only way someone could change their appearance so much so fast, is for them to have god0like powers, or at least get help from a god. this shows his maturity because it shows that he is not gullible and that he doesn't easily trust people, which can be a very mature quality.
1. In book 16 when Telemachus and Odysseus are reunited they sob uncontrollably. This shows us that in Greek culture it was okay for to men to hug and cry, even if that man was a tough warrior.
ReplyDelete2. In this book we are able to see that Telemachus has matured when he says, “ you’ll sense the courage inside me, that I know- I’m hardly flighty.” We are also able to tell that he ha matured because he asks his father, who is supposedly great at coming up with plans, to change his plan. This shows that he has really become more confident with himself, because it would take a lot to ask Odysseus, one of the craftiest men, to change his plan.
1.I have no idea who those people are. In book 16 when odysseus returns home Telemachus seems as he doesn't recognize his own father because of his changes are godly. But soon he realizes it is his father and they hug and cry together. This shows that the greek community is easily forgiving and are able to easily hug and cry in public. In the 21st century we seem to hold grudges and are not easily forgiving.
ReplyDelete2. Telemachus shows he has matured by being able to forgive his father and being able to realize the changes that made him think he wasn't his father. Telemachus also agrees to fight the suitors with his father and Athena.
At the moment that Odysseus reveals himself to Telemachus several things happened. One, Telemachus rejected the statement made by his father because he was in disbelief as shown in lines 218-228. Secondly, I think there was a sense of closure for both characters. This was shown by the emotional river of tears that trickled down from both father and son. WE finally se how the Greeks feel about their most close and personal relationships. They have strong emotional connections. This shows the difference between Americans and Greeks. Most Americans wouldn't be that happy to see their father after all those years, they might even reject the parents more.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus shows his maturity in this chapter because instead of him just letting his father figure out how to plan against the suitors, he helped make a plot against the suitors. This shows him stepping up and acting like the man he is turning into and has been turning into throughout Odysseus' journey.
1. The Greeks consistently show emotion, but today we don't show express how we feel as much in comparison to the Greeks. Their attitude towards emotion is viewed as a good thing, even when its not needed.
ReplyDelete2. Telemachus has matured because he went to find his dad instead of just staying home and doing nothing. Also, when he finally saw his dad at the swineherd, he agreed to fight the suitors. Earlier, he wouldn't have agreed to this because he was scared, but now that hes matured, he will do anything to help his family.
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ReplyDeleteThe reaction between Odysseus and Telemachus tells us that the greeks also had the same attitude towards emotion like we do. They were both sentimental about seeing each other. But it is also different beause when Telemachus saw his father transform and become himself he did not reconize his father. Telemachus shows that he has matured in many different ways. For example, he was able to grow up without a father as a mentor, to teach him the right things to do, and to become a man. He also shows that he matured because he leaves his mom to go on a quest to go find his father.
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ReplyDeleteOdysseus' and Telemachus' reaction to seeing each other tells us a lot about how Greeks felt about showing their emotions. Also, this attitude towards emotion is something that has changed throughout the years. Throughout the Odyssey the main characters of the book have breakdowns where they fall into a pit of tears. Specifically when Odysseus and Telemachus meet for the first time in twenty years. Odysseus embraces his son and they both begin to cry. Homer compares their cries to the same screeches a bird makes. In modern society our views on how people should show their emotions is a little different, particularly for males. IN our society, our heros in movies or books are generally big, strong, stoic men that never show any emotion. It gives off the impression that crying, or any other method of showing emotion is not "manly" or "tough". That manly/toughness is the idealistic hero for many people and showing emotions does not compliment that.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus shows us in chapter 16 that the ten year journey has changed him and made him more mature. When Odysseus admits to Telemachus that he is his father, Telemachus does not believe him. This shows that he has been lied to before. Now he has become more cautious about things that appear to be good. Another way that Telemachus had matured was that while Odysseus and him were scheming a plan to kill the suitors, Telemachus was helping Odysseus. He was not agreeing to everything that Odysseus said, in fact he tried to change the plan several times. This shows that Telemachus has become his own man and he is not afraid to voice his opinions, even to the man he respects the most
1. When Odysseus and Telemachus reunite there is a lot of emotion expressed between the two of them. They were extremely sad, and they cried and hugged each other. They cried so much and so hard that they were screaming in pain of missing each other. This tells us that the greeks hide their emotions like most men do, but they are more expressive when they do express their emotions. Greek men tend to share their emotions more, unlike American men. In American society it's not acceptable for men to share their feelings like crying, but in greek society men can cheat on their wives and pretty much share any of their emotions that they wish to. The similarity the greeks and the americans share is that they will not show that they are sad because it makes them vulnerable, and most of the greek men and some americans are in war and need to be strong.
ReplyDelete2. Telemachus shows that he has matured in this book because he has learned to be more cautious. He learns to make wise decisions and not to believe everything that he is told. When Odysseus tells him that he is his father, he doesn't believe him at first. He has also matured because he and his father are now plotting to attack the suitors, and before he wouldn't have been strong enough mentally or physically to face the suitors. Now after maturing, he is able to face his fears and fight for himself.