Chapter 22
Holden has what I like to call “I’m emotional, but I can’t tell anyone, or it will seem more real syndrome”, and for him it is awful. In chapter 22, Holden is still trying to convince Phoebe that their father is not going to kill him, and he might go live on a ranch in Colorado. At a certain point, Phoebe says, “Why don’t you like anything that’s happening?” Holden tries to persuade her that he does like things, such as talking to her and Allie. He denies his own self-professed depression and loneliness to tell her he likes plenty of things.Phoebe quickly points out that Allie is dead, so it “doesn’t count” as something Holden can like. I think that is the root of the problem. It’s healthy for Holden to miss Allie, and to wish he were still alive, but to associate Allie as a thing that is either real or imaginary is something else. Holden still thinks of Allie as something that affects his everyday life. As if he were to see a hat Allie would have liked and bought it for him, without realizing Allie could never wear the hat. That is the same way I think Holden sees Allie. Do you agree with me, or do you think he’s just an over emotional teenager or has some other problem? Do you think it was a mistake for him to go see Phoebe, or did it actually make him feel better? Why?
I think that Holden has a huge issue with facing his problems. Allie dying is just another one of his issues that he can't seem to accept. I believe that for Holden, its much easier to act like his problems aren't even there. Buying a hat that he thinks Allie would have liked, may just be a coping mechanism; a way to get around his depression. I agree that sometimes Holden can be over emotional in a way, but all teenagers are. I think that the root of the problem is that his way to deal with his issues, is to pretend that they aren't there and that is why he acts the way he does. I think that it was good for Holden to go see Phoebe because even though he didn't get to lay all of his problems out like he had imagined he would, it did give him a second to relax and forget about his depression. I also think that it was a reality check for Holden. Even though he has stayed away from his family, his problem is still there and it will be until he fixes it. I think that this could be a turning point for Holden.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that it seems that Holden simply just can not get rid of the fact that Allie is dead. He acnolages it but he does not act that way all the time. Holden is often reffering back to something Allie did or would have wanted. Also every time it seems that Holden ends talking about Allies by saying you would have liked him or oh man he killed me. This shows that Holden is remembering all the good times he had with his little brother. This is all perfectly fine but it shows us how Holden has not completly healed from Allies death. I also agree that Holden is a teenager who over reacts a lot and is emotional. However, what teenager does not exagerate or use hyperbole. When it comes to Alllie though Holden still needs time to recover like odyeseus he needs ctharses and to tell somebody how he is feeling in order to heal himself. Going to see pheobe in my prespective was a good choice for Holden. He was drunk, lost, out of money, cold and confused. Pheobe was atleast a way for Holden to have some bit of direction in his life. Pheobe also may have opened Holdens eyes and brought him back into reality. The main reason I think it was a good idea for Holden to see pheobe was becuase she listened to his problems instead of cutting Holden off or just ignoring him all together like the other people Holden met.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with you that Holden fails to accept and realize that Allie is dead. I believe that Holden was flustered when Phoebe asked him that question and just responded with the first thing that came to mind. Holden somewhat overreacts when Phoebe says that Allie does not count because he is dead and brings up the point that just because someone is dead, it does not mean you like then any less than before. I think this implies that while Holden recognizes and accepts Allie’s death, he does not want to ever let go of him and he takes great offense when Phoebe inadvertently implies that Holden must care less for Allie than he did previously. I think Holden is also starting to question himself, and starts to reflect on his actions when Phoebe answers that question. This is beneficial for Holden because he starting deal with some of his thoughts and emotions. I do not think it was a mistake for him to see Phoebe, but at the same time, I do not think that it made him feel better. I think it was beneficial for him to see Phoebe because the interaction caused Holden to deal with some of his problems, which he refused to do before. I also think that one of the main reasons that Phoebe managed to get Holden to respond as he did was for the simple reason that she is his little sister, and is one of the few people whom he could successfully talk to. He has even admitted it himself that she was one of the few people who Holden liked talking to. Holden even starts explaining to her his excuse for failing out of Pencey, which is something that is very personal and is obviously hard for him to talk about. I do not think this made him feel better because he had to deal with some painful realizations, which I doubt he took a lot of pleasure in.
ReplyDeleteI think Holden has many problems under his surface, as many teenagers do. Many people say that teenagers are "overemotional". Some of the time, that is true but a lot of the times there are problems under the surface that these people refuse to address or tell others about because they do not want to be a burden to other people. I think it was okay to say that Holden likes Allie and he made a valid point when he said just because something is dead or gone doesn't mean you can't like it or be fond of it. I do believe, however, that liking something that is dead or gone is more of a missing or a longing for that thing but could also be a liking. I think when Phoebe asked him something he liked, it was a big epiphany and wakeup call for Holden on his current emotional state, even though he still denied part of when he said he didn't like anything. I think seeing Phoebe was good for him because it gave him a chance to say everything that was on his mind. It was a mind relieving and stress relieving session with his little sister who he had not seen in a while and misses.
ReplyDeleteI believe that it was heeling for Holden to go see Phoebe; he just needed to talk to someone, even if that someone is his younger sister. His actions are certainly not overemotional in this chapter, in fact it seems more like he just doesn't want to face the truth about anything; Allie, and his expulsion out of Pencey. When Phoebe keeps mentioning how their father is going to "kill" him, I think Holden is just trying to ignore this fact while Phoebe just keeps repeating it, as if trying to get across to him what he's gotten himself into. He states "nobody's gonna kill me" two times, trying to convince Phoebe that his dropping out of Pencey wasn't that bad. However, I think the reason she emphasized this point was to try to express her concern, almost along the lines of a 'you did it again!' reaction. She also continually tells him to stop cursing, which tells us that either she dislikes swearing in general, or she doesn't want to see her brother, whom she admires, swearing without a good reason. I think she realizes that he's been swearing more, and she is concerned for why this is occuring. I think his visit to see Phoebe acted as a bit of a wake up for him, and a chance to realize what he likes and what he wants to do. As readers, we get to understand even more of Holden's mind, looking into his mind and realizing that he really doesn't like a lot of things, and he really has no real plan with what he wants to accomplish with his life. So, yes, I believe that his visit with Phoebe was a chance for him to actually think and stop avoiding the questions about what he wants to do in his life.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I definitely think that it must have been hard for Holden to hear Phoebe say that it doesn't count because Allie is dead. I think it must be very hard for him because it seems as though he still has not come to terms with Allie's death. I think because he never initially got to heal from the tragedy it is making it even harder for Holden to let go. I think it was good for Holden to visit Phoebe. So far it seems as though Phoebe is the only person who has actually listened to Holden. Even though Holden has not shared as much as he probably could I think it is good for him to have someone listen to him. The only thing that I do not think was good about Holden visiting Phoebe, is that she kept on saying that their father is going to kill Holden. As I was reading the book I personally felt as though Holden was getting a little bit annoyed that Phoebe kept on saying that because I believe he is still sensitive about Allie's death.
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you. I think it is very hard for Holden to accept the fact that he lost his brother that he was so close too. We see in 'Catcher in the Rye' that when Holden knew Allie was dead, he broke all the windows in the garage. Holden went through a great deal of pain when he lost Allie. I think it is had for him to accept that Allie will never be in his life again. I do not think it was a mistake for Holden to see Phoebe. Holden really needs someone to talk to and through his journey in New York no one wanted to take the time to talk to him. Phoebe payed attention and really cares about Holden. I think it was good for Holden to have someone who genially cares for his well being.
ReplyDeleteI dont necessarily agree that Holden doesn't accept the fact that Allie is dead. I believe that Holden is very aware that Allie isn't alive anymore. Allie being dead could possibly have an affect on Holden's everyday life, like the example you gave about seeing a hat Allie would've liked. However, the effect it may have on Holden would be more of an emotional effect rather than not acknowledging that Allie is dead. To me, Holden relieves some stress by talking to his sister. This scene with Phoebe is the most fun so far we've seen Holden having in the book, (minus the argument with Phoebe.) Holden states that he "didn't care if his parents caught him or not." He also said he wished they would've caught him. To me this means that the visit with Phoebe has made Holden want to be around her more, possibly finding that person who may actually listen to his "inner scream" .
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you have said concerning Holden's belief that allie is still animate. For example, in chapter 25 when holden is crossing streets down fifth avenue, he feels as if he will disappear with when every he steps on the actual road. Holden pleads for Allie to keep his safe from plummeting down, and proceeds to thank Allie every time that he makes to the other side of a street. I also think that Holden is not honest about his beliefs on religion. He says he is an atheist but he believes in some things christians do. Earlier in the book Holden mentions that Allie is in heaven. How can holden think there is a heaven and how can Holden think that Allie can help him if he is an atheist. I don't think that it was a mistake for Holden to go and see phoebe. If he didn't talk to someone soon I think he would have gotten to a state of depression where he would do something extremely irrational.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that sometimes Holden forgets or tries to block out the fact that Allie is dead. He talks about Allie like he is still there. For example, Holden would try to bring Allie into things as much as possible like writing the composition. Holden was simply asked to describe a room, yet he wanted to write about Allie. He brought Allie into his mind, even though what he was doing had nothing to do with Allie. I think that Holden can't get Allie out his mind whether it's his conscious mind or his sub conscious. I just think he can't forget or stop thinking about Allie period. I think that Holden writes the composition about Allie, because it's the only way he can't express his feelings without anyone hearing them. I remember Ms. Fleming saying in class that writing is the source of learning, and I feel like that is what Holden was doing. By writing the composition, he was learning how to deal with Allie's death, and it was his way of publishing to the world that he misses Allie. But he was quickly shot down when Stradlater came back and got mad at him for writing about Allie's baseball mitt. I feel like Holden needed someone to talk to that would actually listen to him instead of putting him down like that. That's why he needed to see Phoebe. She is the only one person who actually listens to him, and he even says she's a great listener. This was the only part of the book where he was happy, and he needed to relax and be with someone he loved and who loved him back.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Holden needs to let go of his longing for Allie. It's okay for him to miss his brother, but it doesn't seem healthy to obsess over him. I think that visiting Phoebe was good for Holden because Phoebe has a very sturdy personality and a strong outlook on life, and I think that she helps Holden to steady himself when he's uncertain. Phoebe also might have helped Holden move towards realizing that he needs to let go of Allie by reminding him that their brother is dead, and that they need to move on. It also seems that Holden had to go home to be able to get anywhere else. What I mean by this, is that Holden seems stuck almost the entire time that he's in New York. He is never really certain of what he wants to do or who he wants to see. This is a recurring theme with Holden until he sees Phoebe. After he meets up with Phoebe he is very sure of what he needs to do, and he seems more steady with his decisions.
ReplyDeleteI actually think that Holden is in fact aware that Allie is dead and not alive. Although it could have an effect on Holden's daily life, it is not like he is obsessed with Allie. I think it is normal for Holden to miss his brother dearly, and at a young age at it too. I think that Holden is going through what normal teenagers experience when their sibling or special friend dies. I'm sure Holden looked up to his brother very much, and it is ok for him to think of him everyday. If my sibling died, I would be thinking about them everyday as well. I actually believe that seeing Phoebe was a good thing for Holden because it gave him a chance to go see a sibling and to be with some family. It was good for Holden to find someone that he could talk to and actually listen at that.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kunal that Holden is aware that Allie is dead and not alive. You said that Holden thinks of Allie as something that affects his everyday life. To me, this doesn't mean that he thinks that Allie is alive. I had a friend who died of Leukemia about three years ago and I still think of him everyday. I know that he is dead now, but he still afffects my everyday life. I do thinks in a way I would have never done them if it wasn't for him. So I think that Holden knows that Allie is dead, and is just very emotional.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that it was a mistake for him to go see Phoebe at all, because he was able to see someone from his family. I think that being able to see someone who you have such a great connection in a hard time like this, was good for him and helped him relax a little,